论玩兴
——弗兰克·盖里访谈

张利/ZHANG Li

路培 译/Translated by LU Pei

论玩兴
——弗兰克·盖里访谈

On Playfulness: Interview with Frank Gehry

张利/ZHANG Li

路培 译/Translated by LU Pei

1.2 巴黎路易威登基金会外景/Exterior views of Foundation Louis Vuitton （摄影/Photos: Iwan Baan ©Iwan Baan 2014 © Gehry partners LLP）

2015年6月20日-8月9日，“弗兰克·盖里巴黎路易威登基金会建筑展览”在北京举办。展览聚焦在弗兰克·盖里所设计建造的巴黎路易威登基金会，追溯了整个基金会设计的始终，从初始的设计草图到最终建筑的成型，汇集了整个建筑项目进程中所制作的各种建筑模型，呈现出该建筑设计过程中各个不同方面的研究。以该展览为契机，在路易威登基金会的帮助下，本刊对因故未能来京的弗兰克·盖里进行了简短的访谈。

1 关于巴黎路易威登基金会及其展览

张利：与您的其他项目相比，巴黎路易斯威登基金会的设计过程有什么与众不同之处？如果有，它与之前的项目区别何在？有什么联系或进一步发展？

盖里：我在每一个项目上的设计过程都是一样的。不同在于，每个项目的甲方不一样，需求和看待问题的视角也各不相同。尽管过程相似，结果却大相径庭。

张利：您最喜欢这个建筑的哪个部分？对您来说，

最大的挑战是什么？

盖里：项目的甲方阿尔诺先生对这个建筑非常满意，参观者也喜欢它，这是令我最为满意的一点。这也是整个项目中最为重要的一点，同时也是最大的挑战所在！

张利：您对这次展览作何评价？它是否完美地展现了您的设计过程？展览中是否有独特的地方可以让您从不同的视角看待这个项目？

盖里：这个展览完美地展现了设计的过程。通过展览，人们可以了解到，我们在塑造这个建筑之前，对项目功能给予了充分的考虑。在这之后，我们对建筑的表达形式进行了探索，尝试了非常多的想法，并最终找到了正确的那一个。

2 关于建筑理念

张利：您的作品被认为是我们这个时代最令人愉快的建筑。所以，或许我们可以聊聊“愉快”这个话题。对于一些人，愉快是获得的一种感受；对于另外一些人，愉快是自娱的行为。您对此怎么看？建筑本身可以是一种乐趣吗？

盖里：我热爱做建筑，热衷设计一些大家都喜欢去的场所。我认为有一点很重要，就是要时常记得建筑是为人而建的，空间应让人感觉舒服且令人振奋。而这早已不被重视。对人的关注，是我们在设计建筑或体验建筑的时候最为关键的因素。

张利：审美体验带给人的愉悦与商品消费带给人的愉悦总是难以区分，就连众多时髦的现代美术馆也难以逃脱这一令人尴尬的判断。您如何区分深入心灵的建筑与面向市场的建筑？

盖里：我相信好的设计并非只是昂贵的设计。现如今，很多人以此为借口不做好设计。我们目前正在做的许多公益项目，建设造价都不高，空间的体验却都很棒。

张利：“少”还是“多”，这似乎是一个永恒的论题。曾身处于一个“少”盛行的年代，您当初却为何选择了“多”？与您的同辈人相比，您认为是否赢得了这场与极简主义者的斗争？在过度设计与手法主义横行的今天，我们在设计上使用的加法是否已太多？

盖里：每个人都应该以他认为舒服的方式去工作。建筑是包容的，而非排他的。每一种风格或类型的建筑都应有它的容身之地。现如今，总有一些人希望建筑师彼此竞争，可事实并非如此。我对持各种风格的建筑师都尊重有加。无论你自己是哪种风格，我要求你对你所采用的技艺的各个方面都要了如指掌；无论项目规模有多小，你都要竭尽所能拿出最好的设计；无论设计什么，你都要尊重客户的时间安排和预算，尊重设计作品未来的使用者。

张利：建筑师，尤其著名的建筑师，通常自我意识比较强，以致于会严重地伤及他们的幽默感。您是一个例外，为什么？您是如何在建筑与生活中保持幽默感的？

盖里：我热爱我所做的。当你热爱你所做的事情时，你会希望人们有参与感并且快乐。□

3-7 北京“弗兰克·盖里巴黎路易威登基金会建筑展览”现场/ Exhibition in Beijing

8 展览设计中的草图/Sketch in the exhibition（3-8 图片版权/ Copyright: 路易威登基金会/Foundation Louis Vuitton）

1 About Foundation Louis Vuitton Building in Paris and the Exhibition

ZHANG Li: Is it a different process comparing with other projects, if yes, what's the difference and the connections or evolutions?

Frank Gehry: My process is the same for every project. The difference is that each project has a different client and a different set of needs and a different perspective. The process for each project is similar but the outcomes are very different.

ZHANG Li: What is your favorite part in this building? What is the big challenge for you?

Frank Gehry: My favorite part is that the client M. Arnault is very happy with it and the visitors like it too. That is the most important part and also the biggest challenge!

ZHANG Li: What are your comments for the exhibition? Is it reflecting your design process perfectly? Is there anything special in this exhibition that gives you a different view on this project?

Frank Gehry: The exhibition shows the process very well. It shows how we pay very close attention to the program before we shape the building. And then when we explore the architectural expression of the project, we try many many different ideas before we find the right one.

2 About Frank Gehry's general architecture philosophy

ZHANG Li: Your architecture has been regarded as the most pleasurable of our time. So it might be reasonable to bring in the subject of pleasure. To some, pleasure is something that one receives. To others, pleasure is something that one practices. What is your take on this? Can architecture be a pleasure?

Frank Gehry: I love to make architecture and I love to make places that people like to go to. I think it is important to always remember that architecture is for people and that spaces should feel good and uplifting to people. This is something that has gotten lost. Humanity is the most important thing to focus on when making or experiencing architecture.

ZHANG Li: There is always a blurry distinction between the delight of aesthetic experience and the delight of commodity consuming. Even the posh modern museums cannot evade this embarrassment. How would you define the difference between architecture that speaks to the mind and architecture that speaks to the market?

Frank Gehry: I don't believe that good design is only expensive design. Far too many people use this as an excuse not to make a good design. We are working on many pro-bono projects that are not expensive to build but the experience of the space will be great.

ZHANG Li: Should it be more or should it be less, this seems to be a question that is going debated forever. Why did you select "more" at a time that was still very much about "less" ? Do you think you have, with some contemporaries, won the war against reductivists? Given the spread of over-design and mannerism in architecture today, are we having too much?

Frank Gehry: Everyone has to work in the manner that they feel comfortable with. Architecture is inclusive, not exclusive. There is room for every style and every type of architecture. Far too many people want to pit architects against each other, which just isn't the case. I greatly respect architects of all different styles. Whatever your style is, I urge you to understand every aspect of your craft; do your best work no matter how small it is; and design everything with respect for your client's schedule and budget and for the people who will use it.

ZHANG Li: Architects, particularly worldrenowned architects, tend to have enlarged egos that significantly compromise their sense of humor. You are an exception. Why is it? How did you maintain your sense of humor, both in architecture and in life?

Frank Gehry: I love what I do. When you love what you do, you want people to feel included and happy.□

清华大学建筑学院/《世界建筑》

2015-08-22