与“立志于档案管理的人”相聚在人大

与人文学科中的历史与法律学科，社会科学中的社会学、公共管理等其他学科相比，我的专业——档案学与档案管理，则是一个非常小众的领域。尽管该学科十分独特，但是，由于其扎根于人文科学与社会科学之中，其实践应用却贯穿了人类社会的各个层面。在很长的一段时间里，即使在诸如国际档案理事会（ICA）这样的国际组织，国际档案学及档案管理的运作方式仍是各自独立的。国际档案理事会的成员们囊括了各个国家的档案局，并定期（每四年一次）举行全球代表大会，并邀请各国代表参会。然而，在电子（现在是数字）档案问世之前，无论是相关研究，抑或是积极性交流等，在大学的教学过程中均没有得到开展。数字档案在管理方面所面临诸多挑战，包括永久保存问题，将“立志于档案管理”的人们包括对档案学及其对当今数字世界认知充满热忱的人们聚集在一起，在过往的历史进程中是前所未有的。而我在中国人民大学的教学与研究故事，就是在这样的背景下开始的。

Compared to other fields such as History and law in humanities or sociology and public administration in social sciences, my field, archival science and records management is a bit small.It is unique.However, as it has its roots in both humanities and social sciences,its practical implications span through all the aspects of human society.For a long time, the international archival/records field had operated in a generally isolated fashion even with the presence of international organizations governing it, such as the International Council on Archives (ICA).The ICA includes national archives administrations as its members, and holds regular congresses (every four years) that are met with global participation.Nevertheless,neither researching nor active exchanges on university teachings took place until the advent of electronic (now digital) records.The challenges of digital records with regard to their management,including permanent preservation, have brought together people‘with a records-management heart’ - for instance, the people that are passionate about records and their affordances to today’s digital world; a scene that is historically unprecedented.My story of teaching and researching at Renmin University of China (RUC)started against this backdrop.

Typical example with “records-management heart”

I met Professor Jian Wang of the RUC’s School of Information Resource Management (SIRM) in Vancouver, which is now an iS-chool, in 2007.She appeared to be the perfect example of a person with a digital ‘records-management heart’.She came to represent SIRM and participate in the world’s largest and longest research project on digital records, InterPARES (www.interpares.org and www.itrustai.org).InterPARES was supported by Canada’s Social Science and Humanities Research Council (SSHRC), the University of British Columbia (UBC), and the institutions of various kinds of international teams, spanning every continent.I was, and have been one of the InterPARES researchers.Upon the professor’s invitation, I went to Beijing to hold talks on digital records management in general, with the centre of attention being Electronic Records Management Systems (EDRM) and their standards in particular.However, I did not intend to go work there at that time.I then met Linqing Ma, an SIRM PhD student, in 2010.She was supervised by Professor Huiling Feng, who came to the UBC as an exchange student, under Professor Luciana Duranti’s supervision.Professor Duranti is an internationally renowned archival scholar,directing the InterPARES project.He is also my PhD supervisor.Linqing, a nice and warm girl.She was also a good example of a person with a ‘records-management heart’.We became familiar with each other after she started taking my courses-‘Digital Diplomatics’ and ‘Digital Records Management’.Linqing came to talk to me every time after class.I was really impressed by her excitement about the studying materials produced by InterPARES and her strong desire to learn about everything relating to records and archives.She showed up in downtown Vancouver one day, where I also worked as a records manager, waiting for me to get off work so that she could use the commute time to ask questions about Canadian archival theories.My boss and colleagues were just as surprised as I was to see her.They saw us walking out of the building and asked, “She’s waiting for you to ask questions about records management, not to go for dinner here, while there are so many nice places to eat here? ” to which we laughed.Soon after they left, Linqing started asking a series of questions, all to which I responded, along with apologies for taking up my time.She told me that she had many questions and hoped to find answers to all of them so that the opportunity of coming to UBC would be maxed out.Even though I was hungry, I was truly impressed.To date, I can still vividly recall that episode.Many of our subsequent Q&As took place at restaurants, where we “killed” both hunger and concern with one stone: delicious food, which also proved good for thoughts.It was during those Q&A sessions, that I learned that to max out her time and opportunity while here, she decided not to visit any tourist destinations.It must have been difficult to do that,as it is not the typical behaviour that you would expect from a student coming from China, with financial support from the government.Nonetheless, Linqing did it.“I do not regret at all”, she said to me when leaving the UBC campus and returning to Beijing, “I only hope I could have more time here, studying and asking you questions”.Linqing became the first wonderful memory I ever had of Chinese archival students.

拥有“档案管理之心”的典型范例

2007年，我在温哥华遇到了来自中国人民大学信息资源管理学院（SIRM）的王健教授，现在该学院是iSchool（注：由多个国家的高等院校辖下的信息学院组成，倡导以跨学科的角度来理解信息管理所带来的机遇与挑战）的成员之一。王健教授本人是一位立志于推动电子“档案管理”发展的完美范例。那时，她代表中国人民大学信息资源管理学院参加了世界上规模最大、时间最长的档案研究项目“InterPARES”（即“电子系统中文件真实性永久保障国际合作研究”，网址：www.interpares.org与www.itrustai.org）。InterPARES得到了加拿大社会科学与人文研究理事会（SSHRC）、英属哥伦比亚大学（UBC），以及各大洲各种国际团队下属机构的支持。我一直在InterPARES担任研究人员，现在仍然在其内担任职务。应王健教授的邀请，我前往北京参与数字档案管理的相关会谈，会谈内容主要涉及电子档案管理系统（EDRM）及其标准。然而，我当时并没有去往北京工作的打算。

此后，在2010年，我遇到了马林青，她当时是中国人民大学信息资源管理学院的在读博士生。她的导师冯慧玲教授之前曾是英属哥伦比亚的交换生。冯慧玲教授的导师露西安娜·杜兰蒂（Luciana Duranti）教授不仅是国际著名的档案学者，还负责InterPARES项目。此外，她还有另一个身份，即我的博士导师。林青，是一位善良又热情的姑娘，同时也致力于档案管理事业。在她开始听我的课程“数字外交”和“数字档案管理”之后，我们彼此间变得熟络起来。每次下课后，林青都会来找我聊天。她是InterPARES学习资料的深度热爱者，也对与记录和档案有关的一切怀有强烈的求知欲，这些都给我留下了深刻的印象。

有一天，她出现在温哥华市中心，那时我正好也在附近担任档案主管，于是她便等着我下班，这样她就可以在下班的途中询问我一些关于加拿大档案管理理论的问题。我看到她的时候非常惊讶，惊讶的还有我的老板和同事。之后，他们看到我和林青走出大楼，便追问：“她在这里等你，居然不是为了和你共进晚餐，毕竟这里有许多美食可供选择，而是询问你关于档案管理的问题！”于是，我们相视而笑。待我的老板与同事们离开后，林青便开始问我一系列问题，我对所有问题一一作答，而她也为占用我的时间而表示歉意。林青说她其实有很多问题，希望能够最大限度地利用来英属哥伦比亚大学学习的机会寻找所有问题的答案。当时，尽管饥肠辘辘，但我真的非常感动。直至今日，当时所发生的一切仍历历在目。后来，我们之间的许多问答环节都发生在餐馆之内，因为这样可以起到“一石二鸟”的作用，既消除了饥饿，也解决了困惑。正是在解答这些问题的过程中，我了解到，为了充分利用自己在这里的时间与机会，林青决定不去往任何地方旅行。其实，要做到这一点必然困难重重，因为对于一位来自中国且拥有政府资助的留学生而言，此类做法并不典型，着实出人意料。尽管如此，林青还是说到做到。在离开英属哥伦比亚大学并准备返回北京的前夕，林青对我说：“我一点都不后悔，因为我只希望自己能在这里有更多的时间学习，并向您请教问题。”于我而言，作为中国档案学专业的学生，林青给我留下了一段美好回忆。

RUC is a suitable place for me to grow

Through Linqing and her passion for records management, I got to know other people at SIRM, who were just as passionate about record management, most noticeably, Professor Huiling Feng, Linqing’s PhD supervisor, and Professor Yuenan Liu, who supervised Linqing for her master thesis.We collaborated in doing research and in 2012, we went to the ICA Congress in Brisbane, Australia to report our studies.We took that opportunity, and the team went to a number of archival institutions, including the National Archives of Australia to collect interview data for subsequent research projects.This excursion becomes instrumental in my decision to work SIRM.Professor Feng and professor Liu both loved records management.They also held a sincere sense of responsibility towards records and archives.They described it as having an archival undertaking.It was more than a job or a career; it was an undertaking that required devotion and diligence.I was in awe of their will.I also came to learn that they were lovely ladies.We all enjoyed beautiful dresses and sparkling earrings! (a big smiley face here) At that moment, the trust among us formed, and that was when I decided to work at SIRM.The decision was not entirely difficult as my family did not need to relocate.I concluded that SIRM, along with the University, were suitable places for me to grow and they all supported me.The archival program at SIRM was consistently ranked as the most prominent in China, which assured promising research opportunities and talented students.The University was willing to accommodate my stay on campus, and during the summer and winter breaks, I would go back home for approximately four months.

中国人民大学是适合我成长的地方

通过林青以及她对档案管理学的那份热情，我认识了中国人民大学信息资源管理学院的其他师生，他们也同样对档案管理学怀揣热爱，其中最引人注目的便是林青在读博士期间的导师冯慧玲教授，以及指导林青硕士论文的刘越男教授。我们合作开展研究，并在2012年前往澳大利亚布里斯班的国际档案大会发布了我们的研究成果。为了给后续的研究项目收集采访数据，我们整个团队趁这次机会走访了多家档案机构，包括澳大利亚国家档案馆。这次短途旅行，对我决定前往中国人民大学信息资源管理学院工作起到了重要作用。冯教授和刘教授都很热爱档案管理专业。对于记录学和档案学，她们不仅怀有热忱，还富有责任感。她们将这一切形容为“档案事业”：这不仅仅是一份工作或一种职业，更是一项需要奉献与勤奋的事业。我对她们的想法深感敬畏。不仅如此，她们都是令人喜爱的女性。我们都喜欢漂亮的裙子，以及闪闪发光的耳环（此处，比一个大大的笑脸）！从那时起，我们之间便彼此建立起信任，我决定到中国人民大学信息资源管理学院工作。下这个决心并不那么困难，因为我的家人们不需要搬家。我认为中国人民大学信息资源管理学院，以及整个中国人民大学都是适合我成长的地方，同时我也能获得他们的支持。中国人民大学信息资源管理学院的档案学专业在中国一直名列前茅，这保证其能够提供无限的研究机会，并招录到才华横溢的学生。此外，学校还为我提供了住宿，而在寒暑假期间，我有大约四个月的时间能够回到加拿大。

2013年下半年，我前往北京开启了全新的工作篇章。在我安顿的过程中，很多人都给予了我帮助，并将那些如何“走流程”的来龙去脉告诉我。在这些热心人中，包括时任院长赵国俊教授、张斌教授、卢小兵教授、徐拥军教授，以及学院办公室的诸位领导和同事们。2014年2月，我入住公寓，一切准备就绪。事实上，直到新冠病毒肆虐之前，这里不仅是我的居住地，更是我的办公场所。多亏了网上购物、便捷的快递服务，以及同事与学生们的关心，让我可以心无旁骛地做事情。

到目前为止，我已在中国人民大学教授课程并从事研究有八年之久，包括在加拿大进行线上工作的三年。对于我而言，来到中国人民大学工作是一个明智的决定。在院方和校方的支持下，我获得了长足的发展与进步。在课程设计、班级规模、教学风格、学生评价以及大学管理等方面，同事们也对我的看法与观点给予了尊重与认可。不用通勤节省下来的时间让我能够潜心研究中国的档案学及其实践操作。

谢丽（Sherry L.Xie，加拿大籍），哲学博士，中国人民大学教授、电子文件管理研究中心副主任、博士生导师。加拿大麦基尔大学图书情报学硕士（MLIS，McGill University），加拿大大不列颠哥伦比亚大学档案学硕士（MAS，UBC）、博士（PhD，UBC）。主要研究方向为数字信息及其管理，特别是数字档案和数字技术在法律和信息/社会政策领域的相互作用。目前的研究项目包括人工智能和数字档案，管理研究中的组织记忆，以及数字化组织中的分布式账本技术。Sherry L.Xie, MLIS (McGill University, Montreal, Canada),MAS & PhD (University of British Columbia, Vancouver,Canada).Professor of Renmin University of China and Deputy Director of Research Center for Digital Records Management.Interested in digital information and its management, in particular the interplays between digital records and digital technologies in the areas of law and information/social policy.Current projects include artificial intelligence and digital records, organizational memory in management studies, and distributed ledger technologies in digital organizations.

我在学习中国档案与记录领域是如何运作的过程中，所学所想为我的研究打开了新的窗口。信息领域与管理领域的集成，便是一个很好的例子。这也让我意识到，对于类似的问题，无论是涉及中国国内还是中国以外的其他地区，都应当从跨文化的视角来进行研究。

“你应该为谁而流泪？”

在此期间，尽管并非每一件事情的开端都与我和林青的起初那般，但我对中国学生的良好印象也在不断加深。有时候，他们都很会“包装自己”。在工作的第一年，我带了两名硕士研究生，分别是赵梦坤和易兆林。再后来，2015年我还迎来了自己的第一名博士研究生范冠燕，以及另两名硕士生，李思怡和刘学亚。根据规定，每名学生均需要提交一篇学位论文，而当前的学位论文评估趋势特别注重研究方法。但我不知道的是，这些学生都没有接受过关于研究方法的训练。你可以想象我看到前两名硕士生的研究报告时作何感想。没错，我简直不敢相信自己看到的居然是学术论文。更糟糕的是，我不明白为什么会出现这种情况？“你难道不知道论文写作有国际标准，并且你们每个人都要遵守吗？你们不知道学校对论文所使用的研究方法有明确的要求吗？你们不是都在简历中写了自己已经完成了一篇本科毕业论文吗？如果是这样的话，你们怎么可能对研究方法的运用一无所知呢？而且令人难以置信的是，你们的写作为什么毫无逻辑可言？”这些都是我在和那五名女学生开会时问的问题，从我的语气中，你们大概可以看出我当时的沮丧程度。我们六人面面相觑，一时间不知如何是好。稍过片刻，梦坤开始喃喃自语：“老师，请您不要生气，我知道自己论文写得不好，因为我觉得很难把所有的知识串联在一起。但您不是更应该鼓励我们吗？为什么要对我们如此责备呢？”“我没有听错吧？通过鼓励的方式来实施教育？请问你这是在幼儿园吗？你可是中国顶尖档案学专业的硕士研究生啊！”她的回答着实让我更加沮丧。

话音刚落，我就注意到梦坤的脸颊上挂着泪珠，并且落泪者不止她一人。起初，我十分震惊，但我很快意识到，哭泣能够帮助她们打开自己的内心世界。接着，她们一个接一个地向我讲述着她们过往的学习与研究经历。李思怡，这个能对教科书上很多重要段落熟读成诵的女孩，谈到了她为何不清楚研究报告的目的，以及文学与研究之间的关系。当然，我的博士生冠燕已经完成了她的硕士论文，但她却也附和着思怡的话。原因其实很简单：在中国，并非所有的档案或信息学相关院校，都会在本科阶段开设研究方法的相关课程。然而，作为顶尖院校，中国人民大学在这些专业的本科阶段均开设了相关课程，但这些女学生都不是人大本科的毕业生。

In the second half of 2013, I went to Beijing and reported to work.A lot of people helped me settle down and provided me with vital procedural information.They included the then Dean of the school,Professor Guojun Zhao, Professor Bin Zhang, Professor Xiaobing Lu, and Professor Yongjun Xue as well as the officials in the office of SIRM.My apartment was ready in February 2014 and it became my home and office before the start of COVID-19.Living there was nothing but convenient thanks to online shopping, quick deliveries,and the care from colleagues and students.

So far, I have taught courses and conducted research at RUC for eight years.The three years I spent working online, while still in Canada, are also included.Moving to RUC a was good decision.I have grown as a result of the support that the school and the university have offered me.My opinions/viewpoints on course design,class size, teaching style, student evaluation and university administrators have been respected by my colleagues.The time saved from commuting allowed me to study Chinese archival science and its method of operation in that environment.

Learning about how the archival and records field operates in China opened new windows to my research.A good example is integrating the information field with the management field.It also made me realize that similar issues within and outside China should be investigated with a cross-cultural perspective.

“For whom should you shed a tear?”

I continued to develop fond memories of Chinese students even though not every incident started out the same way Linqing’s started.Other times they came in disguise.I had two master students for the first year, Mengkun Zhao and Zhaolin Yi.Later, in 2015, I had my first PhD student Guanyan Fan, along with two master students,Siyi Li and Xueya Liu.According to regulations, each student needsto submit a thesis for their degrees and the current evaluation trend particularly focuses on research methodology.Unbeknownst to me was that none of them had any prior training in research methodologies.You can only imagine what it must have been like to read the research proposals of the first two master students.I could not believe what I was reading.Worse still, I could not understand how and why that was possible: “Don’t you know there is government regulation on thesis writing and each of you is subject to it? Don’t you know the School has a firm requirement on utilizing research methodology in your research proposal? Didn’t you state in your CV that you’d completed a thesis for your undergraduate program?If so, how could you know nothing about using research methods,and incredibly, your writing has shown no logic? ” Those were the questions I asked during the meeting I had with the five girls, and from my tone, one could tell that I was frustrated.We looked at each other for a moment.“Don’t be angry, teacher,” after some time,Mengkun started mumbling, “I know I wrote the proposal badly because it felt so difficult to put it together, but should you not exercise encouragement in education instead of blaming us?” “What?Encouragement education? Are you in kindergarten or what? You are the master students at the best archival schools in China!” I responded, with intensified frustration.

直到凌晨3点，此次会议才宣告结束，最终她们不再哭泣，我也不再那样沮丧。自始至终，只有一名女学生没有落下一滴眼泪。她不是别人，正是兆林。当其他女孩儿问她为什么没有落泪时，她甚至发表了一段“演说”，表示，于她们而言，这次会议是必经之路。你们可以想象到其他女孩当时的反应。相对而言，兆林比较内向且含蓄，但在那天晚上，她却主动讲出了那段感言。这让其他女孩子们无言以对。

不久，其他几名女孩儿也很快领悟到兆林的精神。在几个小时后，我接到了来自梦坤的微信语音电话，这位女学生的诉求是开展“鼓励式教育”，言到伤心之处，难免哭得撕心裂肺。她告诉我，前一天晚上，在离开我的公寓并回到她们的宿舍后（你们可以看到，这就是住在校园内的好处），这些女孩儿们一起讨论了一个话题：如何成为一名擅长做科研的人，而不是善于考试的人。“您说得对，谢丽老师，我们不应该再将鼓励教育进行下去了。现在，于我们而言，这种教育方式已经用处不大了。我们将重新开始，学习如何变成一个富有逻辑的人。”你们能够想象得到我当时的反应。这便是一个完美的例子，一个如何将挫折转变为热爱的例子。

我不想被别人贴上“女学生催泪教授”的标签。当离开英属哥伦比亚大学的时候，林青在我面前泪流满面；在开题答辩的时候，有些女孩儿也因为回答不出我的问题而潸然泪下。因此，我在下一次论文研究会议上会准备了一场演讲（如果你愿意，也可以称之为“鸡汤”）。“鸡汤”的题目是《你应该为谁而流泪？》当然，你一定听说过，或者喝过同样的“汤”，所以我就不赘述了。总之，姑娘们听得津津有味。每当我们聚在一起吃好吃的，并欢迎新成员加入我们的大家庭时，一个全新的故事又将被谱写，而且每个人都想成为那个讲故事的人。然而，这次却不再有人哭泣，因为这是一个快乐的时刻，充满着欢声笑语。自新冠肺炎疫情暴发以来，我们已相隔两地三年有余，我不得不通过微信线上教学、与学生和同事进行交流。每当听到他们说想念我

Thereafter, I noticed tears streaming down the girl’s face, and she was not the only one.At first, I was shocked, but I soon realized that crying helped them open up.One after the other, they started narrating to me their experiences while studying and doing research.Siyi, the girl who was able to recite many vital passages from textbooks, spoke about how she could not figure out the purpose of a research proposal and the relationship between literature and research.Guanyan, the PhD student, who had, of course, completed her master thesis by now, echoed Siyi’s words.The reason was actually very simple: not all undergraduate programs in the archival/information schools in China had research methods courses.RUC did, but none of the girls were RUC graduates.

The meeting drew to a close at 3:00 o’clock in the morning, with their eyes beginning to dry and my frustration beginning to dissolve.There was but one girl who did not shed a tear.Her name was Zhaolin.She even made a speech—upon inquiries from the other girls on why she did not cry—about how the meeting would be a necessary tool for them.You can only imagine the other girls’ reaction.Zhaolin was comparatively more reserved, yet on that night,she took it upon herself to give a speech.This left the other girls speechless.

Soon afterwards, the other girls quickly adapted Zhaolin’s spirit.A couple of hours later, I got a WeChat call from Mengkun, the girl who had asked for “encouragement education” and had almost cried her heart out, telling me that the previous night, after leaving my apartment and going back to their dorms (you see the benefitsof all living on campus), the girls discussed among themselves, how to become good at doing research instead of taking exams.“You are right, Sherry, we should not hang on to encouragement education anymore.It is useless for us now.We’ll start anew and learn to be logic”.Imagine my reaction.This is a perfect example of how frustration turned into fondness.的时候，我都能感受到这份真挚的情感，并被深深触动。

作者（中）与学生合影

那么，一切都顺利吗？答案绝对不是这样的。在这里，有许多规则需要我去学习，更有许多观念需要我去理解。尽管如此，我仍然相信，在中国人民大学带着“档案管理”的初心，所从事的跨学科研究将会变得更加频繁，更加高产。在过往的八年中，种种经历都向我证明：相互理解，一定是研究与教学的关键所在。要想不断增进这种理解，需要相关各方的共同努力，上到哲学、管理学及计算机科学的“元学科”，下至档案学与档案管理的“姐妹学科”，如信息行为学及人机交互领域。校内外的国际交流与合作无时无刻不在发生。然而，这些交流并不等同于基于理解的相互性交流。同时，付出时间与努力尝试，也是推动相互理解的基本要求。此外，八年的时间过去了，我感到十分乐观，因为我不但拥有了来自老友的支持，还得到了来自新朋友的支持。其中就包括闫慧教授、梁继红副教授、任明副教授，他们都是各自领域的杰出学者。我同他们一样坚信：今天的数字世界比以往任何时候都更需要记录、档案，以及信息管理方面的专业人员，通过建立在相互理解之上的合作，我们将为更美好的明天作出贡献。

祝福我的学生们，同事们，以及所有心念档案管理学科的有心人。

愿世间多一份理解，愿我们被温柔以待。

I would not want to be labeled as ‘the professor who made her students cry’.Linqing cried in front of me when she was leaving UBC.Some girls also sobbed when they couldn’t answer my questions during the proposal defense.Therefore, I prepared a talk(or chicken soup if you wish) during the next thesis-research meeting.It was titled ‘For whom should you shed a tear?’ You must have heard of or drunk the same‘soup’, so I will spare you the details.The girls enjoyed it.Every time we gathered to “chi hao chi de/enjoy tasty foods/” and welcomed new members to the family, a story came up, and everyone wanted to be the storyteller.However, no tears were shed.It was always a happy moment, filled with laughter.COVID-19 has separated us for almost three years now and I have had to teach and communicate with students and colleagues online, using WeChat.Every time they said they had missed me, I felt this sincerity and was deeply touched.

Has everything there been smooth? Absolutely not.There were numerous rules to learn and many ideas to understand.Nonetheless,I believe that the RUC campus still holds promises to my ‘recordsmanagement’ heart, and cross-disciplinary research - one vital goal of my work plan - will take place more often and more fruitfully.The past eight-year experience has demonstrated to me that mutual understanding is absolutely key to research and teaching there.The development of such understanding involves attention from all relevant parties, from university administrators to the “meta disciplines” of philosophy, management, and computer science, to the “sister disciplines” of archival science and records management, such as the fields of information behavior and human-computer interactions.Further,it needs to be strengthened whenever the opportunity presents itself.International exchanges and collaborations are happening all the time,on campus and outside China.However, they are not the equivalent to understanding-based communications.Time and effort are the fundamental requirements to developing mutual understanding.In addition, after eight years, I feel rather optimistic that I have, in my possession, the support of my long-term friends and my newly acquired friends.These include Professor Hui Yan, Associate Professor Jihong Liang, and Associate Professor Ming Ren, all distinguished scholars in their fields.I trust and believe, just as they do, that more than ever,today’s digital world needs records, archives, and information management professions, and by working with mutual understanding, we will ultimately contribute to a better tomorrow.

Best wishes to my students, colleagues, and all people who have a records management heart.

May understanding and kindness prevail.